Request a quote
C R Magnetics Inc is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Electric Instruments in Saint Louis MO
NOTE: You will need to be registered and logged in to an
account in order to participate in the forums.
Register | Login

CR Magnetics Forums

CR8401-1000-N
Last Post 04 Sep 2009 09:07 AM by Tony Hodges. 1 Replies.
Please login to post a reply.
Author Messages Resolved
Tony Hodges
CRM Staff
New Member
New Member
Posts:80

--
04 Sep 2009 09:05 AM
I am interesting in purchasing one of these ground fault current
transformers:

CR8401-1000-N
CR8410-1000-N
CR8420-1000-N

I have a couple questions though.

1. We want to measure the current imbalance of 60Hz line pair. So I
think if we used one of your transformers we would simply put the wire
pair through the core and then what we measure out would be proportional
to the current difference. I am not sure if the transformers above are
all that you have or if they are the best solution for what we need, can
you recommend or suggest which one to use please? Here are
specifications:

1.a. Sensitivity: imbalance of 100uA with output voltage from the
transformer in the 0.1 to 4 millivolt range. The greatest sensitivity
the better. Maximum imbalance we would measure would be less than one
Amp. In our case if our output railed at 0.1 amp, that would be OK.
The output voltage will be going to an analog-to-digital converter for
further processing.

1.b. maximum differential currents that the 60Hz line pair would be
delivering could be upwards of 100Amps. Not sure if there are any
limitations other than inner diameter of the core? It would be great to
be able to use the same coil to measure either ground-fault currents or
the current down one side of the line. For both kinds of measurements
we would be changing the connections to our system in order to use the
correct resistor values.


R = Vs * Te / Ip

Ip = 100uA
Te = 1005
Rmax = 0.1mV * 1005 / 100uA = 1K.
Rmin = 4 mV * 1005 / 100uA = 40K

Not sure if this will work, not sure what the maximum current
measurement would be.

2. Can you explain the "Ir" shown in the specification? I am assuming
that it is the current net current in the primary side (in our case it
would be the imbalance current between the 60Hz line pair)?

3. Could I use a CR8449-2000 (or similar) for both line imbalance
measurement as well as current through one side of the line?

4. What is the difference between the ground fault current transformers
as compared to the general purpose transformers with high turns ratio?
Tony Hodges
CRM Staff
New Member
New Member
Posts:80

--
04 Sep 2009 09:07 AM
Dear Sir,

Thank you for your interest. The designs you want are the -G units for
ground fault.

However, the design for 100 uA of current sensing would probably not be
something that can work for these products. 100 uA is extremely small and
generates very small magnetic field. Typically you can expect the ground
fault CTs to measure 3-4 mA of imbalance. The reason for this is every CT
with a core must have a certain amount of energy to excite the core. The
design of the ground fault CTs uses 80% nickel, 20% iron type cores. This
type of core has relatively a small amount of iron that is very easy to
excite, and therefore a 3-4 mA signal will be able to produce a measurable
output. But 100 uA of current would probably produce little if any of
output signal as the majority of the energy would go to exciting the core.

Another issue is at even 3-4 mA, the output at best will be in the 50 mV or
less range, irregardless of burden resistor. Again the reason for this is
that the core at these levels is only partially excited, and the percent of
signal to excitation is very low. As the signal gets larger, the core
becomes fully excited, and the output capability increases dramatically.
The result is that the transfer function is very non-linear until the core
becomes fully saturated. Typically the ground fault CTs are applied such
that a single point of sensing is desired. For human protection, that is
3-4 mA.

This leads directly to your question on using the same CT for ground fault
levels and 100 Amp sensing. You will probably need 2 different CTs for the
two different applications. I have attached an updated spec sheet that
fully explains this. CTs can sense currents up to the point of saturation.
A CT secondary can be shorted, and the current flowing through the secondary will be the primary divided by the turns ratio. This is the most accurate point of a CT as losses are minimal. A resistance is then added to the secondary. As this resistance is increased, the voltage that the CT must
develop to keep the current flowing according to the turns ratio also increases. This results in higher magnetic field densities in the core,
which also results in more losses. You can keep increasing the resistance
until you reach saturation, at which the magnetic field strength in the core
can no longer be increased. This saturation point is a function of core
size and the number of turns on the secondary.

A ground fault CT has minimal iron in it so it excites fairly easily.
However this also has the effect of decreasing dramatically the saturation
point. A general purpose CT uses silicon steel core and is 90% iron. Its
excitation is significantly higher, but its magnetic saturation is much
higher as well. These are typically used to measure above 500 mA.

This is the main difference between ground fault and general purpose CTs.

Irregardless of CT chosen, the smaller the output voltage required, the more
accurate the part.

You can see on the spec sheet that the output saturation level is very much
lower on the ground faults than on the general purpose.

My recommendation is to use the CR8420-1000-G for your ground fault, and if possible, wrap the wire pair through the hole more than once. This will
give you the best chance at sensing below 3 mA. Please note again that you
will need to empirically determine the burden resistor on this application
as the transfer function of a CT at this low is non-linear. You may need an
amplifier to get it to a level that can be read by your A to D.

I would use the CR8449-2000 for the 100 amp sensing. If you keep the
voltage output low enough, it will provide a linear response at 100 amps
input. (You should be ok to run it at 100 Amps, because all the CTS are
designed to handle 4 X Ir continuously.)

Please login to post a reply.

Powered by Active Forums